PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

ADJOURNMENT MOTIONS (DEBATE)

Sir Richard Acland: A fortnight ago I opposed the Motion to adjourn from Friday to Tuesday. A point of Order developed and you, Mr. Speaker, gave a somewhat strict Ruling. Since then, Sir, you allowed a Debate on a Motion in the same form, which was discussed at great length. May I ask if you have any Ruling to give us on that point?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member, in asking for a Ruling as to the limits of Debate on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House from Friday to Tuesday, has called my attention to two precedents, that of 2nd August, 1939, and that of 9th May, 1940. The Rule of the House on Motions for the Adjournment to a particular day is well known. It is, in brief, that no Amendment may be moved except to substitute an alternative date, and no matter may be raised in Debate except the reasons in favour of such alternative date. In particular, it is out of Order to discuss the merits of any matter which a Member wishes to be able to debate, as a result of the House meeting on an earlier day. Short of this, a Member is entitled to give reasons briefly, to show why the matter he wants discussed is of such urgency that the House should meet earlier to debate it. I have looked at the precedents which the hon. Member mentioned to me. They are not very closely relevant. One was a Motion for the Summer Adjournment; the other a Motion for the Whitsuntide Adjournment. In both cases, the reason put forward was that the general situation was such that the House should adjourn for a briefer period than the Government proposed, whereas the hon. Member wished the House to meet earlier, to debate a particular Motion standing on the Paper. It seemed to me, and it still seems to me,

that the argument he was entering upon would have had the result of turning the Motion for the Adjournment into a Debate on the Motion on the Paper, and that would have been quite out of Order.

ADJOURNMENT

Resolved:
That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn till Tuesday next."—[Mr. James Stuart.]

Orders of the Day — FINANCE BILL

Order for Third Reading read.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
The House will to-day, I hope, take leave of the legislation required by the seventh war-time Budget. Although this Finance Bill incorporates proposals which will leave the people of this country to carry a greater total burden of taxation than they have yet been called upon to bear, the burden has been readily accepted, because the House and the people appreciate that it is necessary to enable us to put the very greatest effort we possibly can into the prosecution of the war. At this stage of the war, however, it is not surprising that the Finance Bill contains, not only provisions which relate directly to the taxation required to finance the war, but also certain provisions which look forward to the future—provisions, for example, such as those very important Clauses dealing with the treatment for taxation purposes of money spent on scientific research. The dual character of the Budget was further emphasised when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer outlined other proposals and inquiries which he had in mind with a view to assisting industrial reconstruction and development after the war. I think the House is agreed that that policy is of the first importance to a sound and successful financial structure. During the last five years we have maintained such a structure. Not only has it served to support our war effort; it should also ensure that when the time comes to give all our energies to the problems of reconstruction we shall not be hindered by any avoidable anxiety about the financial and economic health of the country.
When my right hon. Friend, in his Budget speech, spoke of the challenge to our trade and industry after the war and

outlined his notable plans for assisting industrial reconstruction, I think he took it for granted that every effort would be made to give industry—both employers and employed—a fair field in the shape of economic stability at home. It is nearly 8o years since Walter Bagehot said:
The Treasury is the spring of business".
We might well add now that if the waters of our financial policy are thoroughly to irrigate the fields, not only of business but of the whole of our useful national activity, there must be a nation-wide voluntary co-operation between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the people.
The financial history of this war is an outstanding record of such co-operation. Never before has there been such unity among our people in accepting the heavy burdens of taxation, and in making great voluntary efforts in the field of savings. Although it would be foolish to expect that controversy will be absent from our financial discussions in the future, it is surely not idle to hope that in some directions at any rate our war-time financial experience will prove to be of permanent value. We have recognised, for example, during the war that taxation policy must take account of the spread of taxable national income among the different income ranges, and the White Paper that was presented to the House at the time of the Budget—the analysis of the sources of war finance and the estimate of the national income and expenditure—gave some most interesting and revealing statistics of the distribution of taxable private income and showed that only 6½per cent. of it is now in the hands of those who pay Surtax. Our war-time experience should also help us to realise that the savings which will be required to provide the capital we shall need for reconstruction will have to come from a much wider field than used to be the case. It is obvious to us that the smaller incomes have contributed handsomely to the impressive total of our savings in war-time. We must continue to save all we can. Again, our war-time experience will, I hope, have resulted in a greater appreciation by all sections of the community of the important part which financial policy can play in maintaining a sound economic basis for our national effort. In short, the financial policy of the country, of which this Bill


is the present instrument, has been raised above sectional controversy and has been accepted as a means of serving the common weal in the face of a great national need. Let us face the future in the same spirit.
Yesterday, you told us, Mr. Speaker, that you liked short speakers, short questions and short answers. The unanimity with which the House has accepted this Bill makes it unnecessary for me to say more.

Mr. John Wilmot: I cannot hope to match the right hon. Gentleman in charm or in lucidity, but I will seek to do so in brevity. This Bill, the fifth war Finance Bill, bears upon its front page some glowing words which, when disinterred by future antiquarians, may lead them astray. This page displays the words "beer," "sugar," "entertainments" and "vintage port." If this by some accident were the only page to go down to history, it might well deceive the historians. This Finance Bill is remarkable in several ways. Although it comes at such a time, it imposes no fresh taxation. That, again, will be a matter of financial history. It may well be the last Finance Bill before the defeat of Germany, and it is a remarkable thing, and a great tribute to the management of our finances, that it has been possible towards the end of the war, to avoid any fresh imposition. There is very little in the Bill which is controversial. Some discussion has centred round Clause 33, but I think there is general agreement that, at this time especially, the Chancellor is entitled, not only to take every measure to prevent tax avoidance, but to catch up on those who have used their misplaced ingenuity to devise means by which they can shift their burdens on to other shoulders.
I was very interested—as we always are in the short and clear speeches of the Financial Secretary—to hear the right hon. Gentleman refer again to the Chancellor's Budget proposals for easing the burden of taxation upon industry. I would go so far as to say that I think it would be desirable before another Budget day comes, for the Chancellor to produce another White Paper dealing with this subject in greater detail. The planning of industrial enterprise for peacetime purposes is greatly hampered by

the lack of a clear perception of future financial policy. Has not the time come to consider in what way we shall change over from an Excess Profits Tax, a tax measured by comparing what is with what was, to a tax upon profits pure and simple, in which there is no subtraction sum involved, a straight profits tax upon the results of industry, with allowances and adjustments, made for the purpose of directing expenditure into those channels which are, socially and industrially, most desirable? The White Paper carries a remarkable development of this doctrine that taxation is an instrument, not only for meeting the costs of Government, but for effecting social policy, for redistributing income, for encouraging certain expenditures and for discouraging certain enterprises. This use of the instrument of taxation is carried much further than it has ever been before, in the White Paper to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. It is most desirable that a further elucidation of this policy in detail should be made at an early date. I cannot believe that it would be good policy to continue the Excess Profits Tax. It has had the result of taxing most heavily for some years those young and growing industries which are developing new processes, and which will be the basis of our post-war export trade—of taxing them far more heavily than the old-fashioned, static and prosperous industries like breweries. I am sure that it is against the public interest that this discrimination against enterprise should continue.
I hope the Chancellor will set his face firmly against premature all-round reductions of taxation. It would be much better that the easing of the burden of taxation, when it is possible to do it, should be in the direction which he indicates, rather than a flat-rate reduction all round. It is not, of course, industrial allowances only that have to be considered. We have had perforce during the war to take away much of the personal allowances, which were intended to ease the burden of taxation on the large family, on people with special hardship, and so on. There are a number of claims urgently awaiting attention when we can restore these allowances. I have raised, over and over again, the particularly hard position of the people who have aged and sick dependants to maintain. The tax allowances here are particularly meagre. It is that sort of reduction of taxation


which I hope the Chancellor will consider in the development of the policy in the use of taxation for social purposes.
There is one other thing which I would like to suggest might find a place in the document which I hope we shall see. That is a development of Estate Duty as a means of encouraging the growing practice of gifts of land to the State or to the National Trust. The practice of preserving great estates from spoliation, and at the same time making them public property, is one which should be encouraged in every way. If by some adjustment of Estate Duty, encouragement could be given to the handing-over of land, rather than the breaking-up of estates in order to realise funds to pay tax a great deal would be done to preserve the beauty and texture of that priceless heritage our English countryside. We have to remember, as is pointed out in that document to which I have referred, that taxation policy is to be a major instrument to be used to iron out the incidence of boom and slump. As soon as the war is over we shall have a situation in which there will be incipient inflation, an enormous, pent-up demand for goods when the supply of many commodities will still be very short. Surely that is the time when taxation should be kept at a high level, in order to check an upswing of prices such as followed immediately on the end of the last war. It would be indefensible to continue the Purchase Tax at its present rate and spread, but a sumptuary tax on luxury articles would, to a certain extent, be a means of preventing the boom psychology which most of us believe to be one of the greatest dangers that will face us at the end of the war.
Finally, I hope that we shall set ourselves against any more talk of the burdens of debt which will be around our necks and that we shall listen not at all to those who say that this will be an obstacle to social progress. Surely it is true that, with the exception of debts we may have incurred to other nations, we cannot pass on the burden to the future even if we would. We have already paid for the war. We have paid for the wages and the food of the workers who made the tanks and the planes. The war has been paid for, and the debt which is recorded in our books, is a debt due from one set of citizens to another. Those with greater resources

have made loans. There is a debt standing to be paid between one group of citizens and another. It is an internal book-keeping entry, representing not a cost of the war still to be paid, but a transfer from one set of individuals to another. By and large, those who are the proprietors of this debt are, in the main, the taxpayers who will meet the bill. It is completely false to suggest that this burden of debt, this record of internal indebtedness of the body of citizens to some of them, is in any sense a hampering factor in future development.
The answer to the question, "Can we afford it?" is not to be found by looking up the figures of the war debt but by asking ourselves, "Have we got the materials, the machines and the men?" If we have those three things, we can afford anything that we can make and do. It is in that spirit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is facing the financial future. There are some timid voices, but I think that, in the main, we have learned a lot during the war about the real meaning of finance. I hope this will be to our lasting profit.

Sir Irving Albery: I have not spoken so far during the passage of the Bill. I should like to take this opportunity of adding my congratulations to the many which the Chancellor has received, and joining in the general approval with which his Finance Bill has passed through this House. I want to refer only to one point, which I think is important. The Budget follows, in the main, the precedent set by many past Budgets, in that it continues a very great deal of very complicated machinery which has gradually grown up far the collection of taxation. I have often thought that if any Chancellor attempted to introduce into this country or into any other country the complicated system of tax collection which at present exists without its having grown up gradually by tradition, and with the consent, the gradual consent, of the taxpayers, the task would be impossible of achievement.
We live at a time when we are contemplating all kinds of changes, social and financial and changes in all kinds of other directions. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he and his experts at the Treasury are endeavouring to investigate, or to make plans for some simplification of the present method,


for some simpler method of collecting the large sums of money which will have to be collected in the future. It is vitally necessary that that should be done, and I hope that the Chancellor can assure us that the matter is receiving attention.

Mr. Benson: I think it is common form that the Second Reading of the Finance Bill should be a sort of commutation service and that the Third Reading should be in the nature of an agapemone. I should, anyhow, like to congratulate the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. Those who hold that office are generally maids of all work, but the right hon. Gentleman has on this occasion been put in charge of our valuable china to the extent that he moved, not only the Third Reading, but the Second Reading also of this Bill. It is unquestionably an outstanding Bill, in that it recognises, in the widest possible way, the overwhelming importance of scientific research in industry. Two or three weeks before the Finance Bill was introduced, there was a Debate upon this subject. I do not think that anybody who took part in it and staked out large and expansive claims, expected that in three weeks the claims would be met in full.
It is rather interesting to consider the reason why the Chancellor has been so open-handed. One thing is quite certain; it is not because industry is short of funds. There are not the slightest grounds for believing that industry cannot afford vastly greater expenditure on research than has been made in the last 20 years, without any help from the Chancellor. If one refers to statistical estimates, one finds that, year by year, very large sums indeed were put to reserve from undistributed profits. For example, I find on reference to Cohn Clarke that in the last three years for which he gives figures, undivided profits for 1933 were £110,000,000, for 1934, £156,000,000 and for 1935, the colossal sum of £228,000,000. In those three years, not exceptionally prosperous years, industry put to financial reserve a sum of £500,000,000. In view of those figures, it is impossible to suggest that industry was in financial need of the assistance which the Chancellor has given to it so open-handedly. The reason why the Chancellor has given the concession is, I suspect, first of all that he realises the overwhelming need for scientific research,

and secondly, that he is only too conscious of the appalling shortsightedness of British industry in this regard. He knew that he could not coerce industry into spending money on scientific research, and had to take the only course open to him, to encourage and to persuade. I am sure that the House will hope that the Chancellor's method will be successful.
There is another matter, a very similar and parallel case, where the need for a far-sighted and energetic policy is as great as it is in regard to scientific research. That is in the modernisation of our industrial equipment and in the extension of our plant and machinery. Here again, there is a similar need, and here again, unfortunately, there is the same shortsighted timidity generally, throughout the whole of industry. During the progress of last year's Finance Bill, I, along with certain hon. Members, put down an Amendment asking that a differential taxation should apply to those funds which were ploughed back into industry, in the form of new equipment and new plant. The Chancellor made reference in his Budget speech to a somewhat similar proposal. He said he had been asked to give a differential rate on the accumulation of reserves, which of course is an entirely different proposition, and one which I think the Chancellor was overwhelmingly justified in refusing without further consideration. As I pointed out industry has, throughout the whole of the 20 years between the wars, except in the two or three slump years of 1929 to 1931, steadily piled up enormous reserves, and there is certainly no need for any further encouragement of undue saving.
But when we come to the provision of actual plant we find there is a very different tale indeed. In those three years I have quoted from Colin Clarke—1933 to 1935—although industry put to reserve £500,000,000, Cohn Clarke calculates that they did no more than maintain existing plant, and that on balance not one pennyworth of new equipment was added to British industry. It may well be that this heavy saving on the part of industry, and this inadequate expenditure, was largely responsible for the hard resistant core of our unemployment figures. The policy of industry in the 1930's was diametrically opposed to the policy which the Government have outlined in their White Paper on unemployment. When Colin Clarke estimated that


industry had made good its depreciations, although that was an extremely pessimistic conclusion, I am not at all sure that, pessimistic as it may have seemed, he was not a great deal too optimistic. Since Clarke made his estimates, we have had the White Paper on financial resources, and I find, on page 9, that the estimate of the Government, the best estimate that could possibly be made—for no other body or individual has such wide resources of research as the Government have—is that the amount actually spent in 1938 upon the maintenance and renewal of depreciated plant, was £100,000,000, and that in addition to that, there was spent upon new plant the beggarly sum of £20,000,000. That £20,000,000 is terrifyingly small when one thinks of the vast sums that are sunk in plant in this country. To realise that in 1938 a mere £20,000,000 worth of new plant was added gives one cause for thought.
When we look at the amount spent on depreciation in 1938, we find that although only £100,000,000 had been spent on renewals and depreciation, according to the Board of Inland Revenue Report the actual amount of depreciation allowances was £150,000,000. Every hon. Member who attends our financial Debates has heard in this House the case put forward, time and again, that the depreciation allowances of the Board of Inland Revenue were totally inadequate. I have heard Member after Member say that these allowances are so small that no competent firm, no careful firm, would dream of ploughed back so small a sum as the beggarly allowances that were given by the Board of Inland Revenue, and the situation demanded that far more should be ploughed back. That has been the claim advanced; that has been the case on which industry has based its demand for increased depreciation allowances, and when we now, for the first time, get the real facts, what do we find? We find that industry has had allowances for 1938—the last figure we have got—to the tune of £150,000,000, and has spent merely £100,000,000 and put the other £50,000,000 into financial reserves. They have spent two-thirds of the allowances which they themselves have declared, time and time again, are grossly inadequate.
When we add to depreciation, new capital, we still find that the total is something less than 20 per cent. of the allowances given by the Board of Inland Revenue. What does it mean? If we assume that £150,000,000 depreciation represents something like seven to ten per cent. of the value of our capital, the £20,000,000 spent on new plant represents an increase of new plant of one or 1¼ per cent. of the value of the plant in this country. I say that is a very grave revelation. It means two things; first of all that our industrial plant before the war was obsolescent and growing more obsolescent year by year at an appalling rate. But it means something even more terrifying than that. It means that the minds of our industrialists were obsolescent, it means that they were as obsolete as their plant. We can renew plant. Whether we can shift these barnacles of industry as readily is a very different question.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made certain proposals with regard to depreciation. He has said that he will allow an additional 20 per cent. on all depreciation allowances in the first year. I was, I think, the sole critic of that proposal. I was a voice crying in the wilderness. The industrialists in the House welcomed it. Of course they did. It means additional cash. The Board of Inland Revenue in 1938 made allowances of £50,000,000 more for depreciation than industry spent upon making good the depreciation, and an addition of another 20 per cent. will not necessarily change this lethargy, which has been the characteristic of our industry.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): Would my hon. Friend be good enough to give me the source of his figure of £150,000,000, as against which only £100,000,000 is spent?

Mr. Benson: Yes, I took it from the 1939 Report of the Board of Inland Revenue, which gives the estimated figure for 1938 of £150,000,000 on depreciation of plant and machinery. The two figures are strictly comparable, if one takes the total in the Report of the Board of Inland Revenue, and the White Paper. I was careful to note that the columns were comparable.

Sir J. Anderson: Has the hon. Member looked at the figures on page 9 of the White Paper?

Mr. Benson: Yes, I compared the £150,000,000 depreciation allowances under the Income Tax, which I took from the figures published in the Report of the Board of Inland Revenue, with the £100,000,000 which was actually spent in 1938, and which is shown on page 9 of the White Paper.

Sir J. Anderson: I do not think the hon. Member is comparing like with like. On page 9 of the White Paper, he will see the allowances for maintenance and depreciation in the case of various categories of equipment; and the allowance in 1938 for depreciation of plant and machinery amounted to £100,000,000.

Mr. Benson: May I point out that, on page 9 of the White Paper, these are not allowances, but actual expenditure? The title of the table is "Private Investment."

Sir J. Anderson: The first column gives private investment. That is split up into investment which is set against allowances for depreciation, and investment of additional capital. That, I think, is the explanation.

Mr. Benson: If the Chancellor takes B.2, he will see that it says "plant and machinery," and the gross investment there was £120,000,000. Is that agreed? Of this amount, £20,000,000 only was new plant. Against that figure, the Chancellor has to put his own Board of Inland Revenue figures for depreciation allowances on plant and machinery. The figure is specified. There, the figure is £150,000,000 for 1938.

Sir J. Anderson: The two are not comparable.

Mr. Benson: That I cannot say; but if they are not, there is something very obscure in the wording of the right hon. Gentleman's own White Paper. It says "depreciation allowances on plant and machinery" in the Board of Inland Revenue Report, and gives £150,000,000 for that; and here it says "depreciation allowances for plant and machinery, £100,000,000." I do not think the right hon. Gentleman can say that the figures are not comparable. As the figures are rather startling, I looked at them askance, and rather wondered at first whether I was comparing like with like. But they fit in so clearly with Colin

Clarke's figures that I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that I am more or less comparing like with like. Whether the comparison is absolutely accurate or not, I am very much afraid it is sufficiently accurate to be grave and disturbing.
I was saying that I was the sole critic of the Chancellor's additional 20 per cent. It was welcomed by industry because it was an additional cash allowance, without any obligation attached to it to spend that cash allowance. That is what industry has welcomed throughout. I suggest that this gift, without any strings attached to it, is an inadequate approach to the situation. I suggest that the Chancellor should consider very carefully the proposals which he put forward; that there should be a differential rate which attaches only to that part of industrial savings which is ploughed back, in the form of additional plant and equipment; and that not only should he encourage in that way, but also that he should take steps to coerce. He cannot compel industry to spend money on research, but he can penalise industry, through variations in depreciation allowances, when they put those depreciation allowances into the bank, and not into plant. He can coerce industry in half a dozen other different ways. While generous allowances should be given for depreciation, those allowances should be curtailed or depleted if they are not spent on plant and equipment. The right hon. Gentleman has two strings to his bow: persuasion and generosity, and, at the same time, severe coercion. I want the Chancellor to realise that his job is not to fall in with the wishes of industry, but to be a flail. In his Budget speech he referred to motor taxation and said that he was willing to do anything to get agreement— [Interruption] —Well, anything in reason.

Sir J. Anderson: Without sacrificing revenue.

Mr. Benson: That is included in "within reason." I understand that the motor industry have agreed, and that the only change they require is that the taxation shall be on engine capacity, instead of on cylinder diameter. That means that the motor industry in this country have chosen to have their taxation levied in such a way that they get enormous protection against American


motor imports. It means that the British motor trade are still going to concentrate on the small engine, and that they intend to sacrifice their share in the enormous world market, which demands a large engine; that they are shirking their duty of trying to expand our exports; that they have gone in for the policy of safety first, and exploiting the home market. I put it to the Chancellor that his duty is not to follow industry's demands, but to coerce industry, in the way the national interest requires. He is not doing his duty if he uses his position to foster the timidity and lethargy which have been the characteristic of British industry in the pre-war years.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke: II do not wish to detain the House long. I would like to join in the tributes to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, not so much for the passage of the Finance Bill, which nowadays has become a formal business, and, I think, rightly so, but for the very skilful Budget which they have introduced, and for their conduct of affairs at the Treasury during a very difficult year. I want to refer to two remarks in the speech made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot) and also to a remark of my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery). He was speaking about the break-up of great estates. I hope very much that, before we get to the next Budget, it may be possible to secure something approaching all-party agreement as to what the future of the great estate should be. Looking back into the past, it seems that the great mistake which was made was that the nation became suspicious of the way of life of the landlords of these great estates, before the nation became aware of the virtue of these estates as national assets. Now, I think, we are getting to the time when everyone—landlords, tenants, and the public in general—begins to think of these estates as part of the character of the nation which can be used in the interests of the nation. If we can, during the course of the next year, begin to reach agreement on an all-party basis, I think there is a prospect that the Chancellor might look sympathetically on remission of taxation on the large estates provided

sufficient guarantees were given as to how they were used.
The hon. Member for Kennington also spoke about the burden of debt, and, there again, I entirely agree with him. The war has been paid for by current taxation, and by voluntary loans. Its cost is the difference between what would have been spent by the public and what actually has been spent. What people have gone without has paid for the war, There is no great debt continuing which must be cleared off, and of which it can be said that the war has not been paid for until it has been cleared off. The only cost remaining to the nation is that of the salaries of the officials in the National Debt Commissioners' Office, who make the transfer of payments from one person to another. That is the actual cost to the nation of the National Debt, and I think the sooner that is realised, by hon. Members, chiefly on this side of the House, the better.
That brings me to the question raised by the hon. Member for Gravesend of a simpler method of collecting the revenue. It is true that the creation of this great National Debt means that a lot of people are engaged in making transfer payments, and it is to be hoped that everything will be done to simplify the procedure of collecting debts and paying benefits, not only in the realms of taxation but in the realms of social service. On this account as well as others, I think we can look to the future proposals of the Government on social service with some hope. It will simplify the whole process of transfer payments from one section of the nation to another if we can co-ordinate all these schemes and gradually bring them, as it were, under one hat, and that is the more desirable because of the man-power situation in the country. We need to have as few people as possible engaged in the actual business of book-keeping and accountancy and, therefore, I welcome the suggestion made by my hon. Friend, and I hope the Chancellor will consider it.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): My Noble Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) supported what has been said by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery) in regard to the possibility of simplifying the tax structure and the administration of taxa-


tion. I am very conscious indeed, having had for some time close contact with tax administration, of the complexities that have grown up—complexities to a very large extent the result of well-meaning attempts to adjust inequalities and meet special cases of hardship. I have had, in the course of this Finance Bill, to reject proposals which, I was bound to admit, could be defended by valid argument, on the ground that they were not consistent with the principles on which the tax structure has been framed. But, while I do not want to encourage undue optimism in regard to the practicability of making sweeping changes in the direction of simplification, I certainly can assure the House that I have, in this matter, a receptive mind and a desire to simplify where simplification is possible, without producing inequalities or hardships.
My hon. Friend also supported the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot) in certain observations which he had to make as to the significance of the National Debt. I think that what we have to beware of there is not complexity but over-simplification, for the matter is not quite so simple as it can readily be made to appear. I think all of us recognise the difference between external debt and internal debt. We realise that internal debt involves, as has been said, transfer payments. That is not, however, to say that we can afford to be unmindful of the burden of our internal debt. Internal debt means a high level of taxation, and a high level of taxation is cramping to industry and enterprise, which we desire to see encouraged. I developed this matter, to some extent, in a speech on the Government's employment policy, and I then pointed out, and I think it is worth repeating, that we ought to look at the National Debt in relation to the growth of the national income. We ought, in turn, to consider the growth of the national income in relation to the growth of automatic burdens. Expansion of the national income might render us indifferent to a proportionate expansion of the National Debt, but we must beware, because we have to consider how far the national income may be already mortgaged. I pointed out the increasing burden which the taxpayers of this country will, inevitably, have to bear, in consequence of the increasing pro-

portion of aged persons in the community.
I think this occasion calls for a short speech, and, therefore, I will not deal in detail with all the points made by previous speakers. The hon. Member for Kennington had some interesting observations to make on the subject of Excess Profits Tax. I was glad to hear what he had to say, because I think it is true that this differential duty imposes a burden, certainly in a number of cases, on enterprise. It has that tendency, and I was very much interested in what my hon. Friend had to say, speaking for hon. Members on those benches. Then there was the point made by the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson), which he developed at some length, and to which I must make some reference. The hon. Member gave us figures, which he had culled from a variety of sources, and sought to draw inferences from them—inferences not at all favourable or complimentary to our industrialists. I think that, here again, there are pitfalls of which we must beware. It is dangerous to take global figures and base conclusions upon them, because, for example, the sums carried to reserve over the whole field of industry may be large in relation to the expenditure incurred on new plant, but the expenditure incurred on new plant in developing industries may be quite a reasonable proportion of the sums carried to reserve in those industries. But global figures include a great variety of cases.
My hon. Friend took a figure from a Board of Inland Revenue Report, and compared it with the figure in the White Paper. I do not know why he preferred to set the Inland Revenue figure against the figure in the White Paper when there was a figure already in the White Paper, which he preferred not to take, corresponding to the figure in the Inland Revenue Report. He did fall into error, as I shall point out in a very few words. He was talking about plant and machinery. The figure of £150,000,000, to which he referred, in that part of the Inland Revenue's Annual Report, gives the total amount allowed by the Revenue authorities in respect of depreciation for taxation purposes over the whole field. It included not merely the income of productive industry; it included the income of non-productive industry, of local authorities and so forth. It even included


such items as depreciation on doctors' motor cars. Really the comparison ought to have been between the figure in the first column of Table D of the White Paper, and the figure in the second column. The Inland Revenue figure is really not relevant in this connection at all.
My hon. Friend, in his references to research, speculated on the reasons why I have sought to make special provision in this Bill for research, why I had treated research differently from expenditure on new plant and for development in industry. In addition to the reasons that he indicated, there was one ground of discrimination which was very prominent in my mind. Apart from a desire to do anything I can to make industry more research-minded—and I think there was a good deal of scope for that—I had this in mind. Research, to a very large extent, products results which, in the first place, are not limited to those who undertake the research, and, in the second place, are spread over a long period and do not accrue immediately; and unless research is undertaken without too close a regard to the immediate benefits that may accrue, we shall go without a great deal of very important fundamental general research. That, I think, was a sufficient justification for treating research on a different footing from other development expenditure by industry.
My hon. Friend repeated a point which he had made previously. I am not sure how far I am in Order in referring to something which is not in the Bill, but my hon. Friend made the point and perhaps I may be allowed to comment briefly on it. He said that the 20 per cent. which I contemplate allowing from taxed income, towards expenditure on plant and machinery, does not give direct encouragement to such expenditure. The fact is that this allowance is to be made, not on money that is merely saved, but on money which is saved out of the proceeds of industry and directly applied to the provision of new plant and machinery; and the same applies to the allowance for buildings. I could not follow the hon. Gentleman in that.

Mr. Benson: May I be allowed to clear up the point? Does the right hon Gentleman suggest that 20 per cent. increase in the first year of depreciation allowance, is

only made if allowances are spent? The point that I was trying to make was, that here was an increase in depreciation allowance, and that industry was not spending its present depreciation allowances.

Sir J. Anderson: I still do not follow my hon. Friend and I think he really has fallen into error here. It is perfectly true —if this was the point he was making—that the initial 20 per cent. can be represented as only an anticipation of depreciation allowance, already available, but the fact that the industrialist, deciding to add to his plant or to instal entirely new plant, can count on being allowed to charge 20 per cent. of the cost immediately against his profit, before tax is levied, must be a direct encouragement to such expenditure. Of course, the position must be considered as a whole. The 20 per cent. increased allowance must be taken in conjunction with the change that is being made in regard to the treatment of the unwritten-off balance, on account of plant which it may be decided to scrap. The effect of the proposals, taken as a whale, will be greatly to ease the burden of renewing plant where the industrialist is pursuing a forward policy, and is ruthlessly scrapping plant as soon as he sees that it can be replaced by more up-to-date machinery. From that point of view, there is, in these proposals, as I think the House recognises, a very direct encouragement to new development.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Before the Chancellor comes to his peroration on the passage of the Third Reading, may I put to him this question? The House was interested in the controversy between my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) and the Chancellor. On this Bill, the House could not follow entirely the merits of the reply which the Chancellor made just now. Would it be possible for the Chancellor to look a little further into this matter, and possibly an agreed Question might be put down for a written answer, if the Chancellor thought it desirable, and the House might thus have, in a form which it could study, the actual reconciliation of the figures, and the answer, if there be an answer, to the argument put forward by my hon. Friend?

Sir J. Anderson: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend. As the House will appreciate, this is a little aside from the


provisions in this present Finance Bill and I am proposing that a separate Bill should be introduced later, dealing with these allowances for new plant and new buildings, wasted assets and so on to cover a whole range of matters of great moment to industry. I should have thought that, perhaps, it would have been best if the appropriate explanations were made in connection with that Bill when the time comes. I only followed my hon. Friend, because I thought, as he had dealt with the matter at some length, some comment from me by way of answer was called for. I shall be very glad to go into the thing fully in due course, and if it appears that it would be of assistance if a Question were answered on the lines my right hon. Friend has suggested, I shall be very glad to meet the wishes of hon. Members.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I am referring not so much to the last point that lie made as to the point that was raised concerning the £150,000,000.

Sir J. Anderson: I misunderstood my right hon. Friend. Certainly, I shall be very glad to clear up any misapprehension in regard to these figures, and perhaps my hon. Friend will put a Question on the Paper.
I feel that the Third Reading is a very enjoyable stage in the passage through this House of a Finance Bill. This has been my first experience in piloting a Finance Bill through the House, and it has been a very happy experience. I would like to say, very simply, how very grateful I am to hon. Members in all quarters of the House for the manner in which they have received the proposals which have been placed before them, and still more the spirit in which they have received the replies—disappointing inevitably to some hon. Members—which I felt bound to make to proposals in suggestions for Amendments and new Clauses and so forth. It is very natural that proposals should be made for meeting hardships which have been brought to the notice of hon. Members and I think it is also very natural that, for the most part, such proposals should be rejected by a Chancellor of the Exchequer, who must be concerned to see that further anomalies and complications are not allowed to creep into the tax system and that the integrity of the tax structure is maintained. But I do recognise the spirit in which the House has received what my

right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and I have had to say on these various matters.
As has been truly said by more than one speaker, this Finance Bill does carry a stage further the application of a new conception of taxation as an instrument of economic policy, and I feel that the attitude which hon. Members have taken up is a good augury for the future development of that policy, as I, personally, would certainly wish to see it develop. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Kennington that I am entirely with him in desiring to see the technique that has been developed in connection with the Budget White Paper carried further into those portions of the economic field which have still to be thoroughly explored, and I hope that successive White Papers will be of increasing value to hon. Members and to the country, in enabling us all to recognise and appreciate the salient facts of our economic situation. I conclude, by saying, once again, how grateful I am to hon. Members.

Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Orders of the Day — LAW OFFICERS BILL

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]

CLAUSE I.—(Attorney-General and Solicitor-General.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Goldie: I was unable to be present when the Attorney-General moved the Second Reading of this very necessary Bill, and there is just one point on which I would venture to ask for information, and I am sure you will not call me to Order, Mr. Williams, if before doing so I, as the senior practising King's Counsel in this House, pay my tribute to the Law Officers. At the present moment those of us who are practising know that their work has increased enormously, beyond all reasonable bounds, and speaking as a member of the General Council of the Bar, I would acknowledge the assistance received from the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General in many difficulties.
What I want to ask my right hon. and learned Friend is this: I notice that this Clause makes no provision for the possi-


bility of the absence of both the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General at the same time. I can well envisage circumstances—for instance, the trial of the war criminals—when we should welcome both the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General being absent. Is there no way in which, in these circumstances, the power can be executed by a Secretary of State? I quote that for one reason and one reason only. I think I am right in saying that all the Secretaries of State have similar powers, and I am strengthened in that argument by a recollection of what Sir Austen Chamberlain told me of a great difficulty he experienced during one Parliamentary Recess when he had to make recommendations with regard to the exercise of the Prerogative of mercy, although he was, in fact, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at the time. I venture to suggest, with all deference, that when this Bill goes to another place, it might be possible to consider whether, in the absence of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General through causes over which they have no control, the old constitutional principle of a Secretary of State having power to perform an executive act, which would normally be carried out by another Secretary of State, should be considered. I can only say that everybody connected with the legal profession welcomes this Bill as a Measure which will supply a long-needed want.

The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): Let me first express my thanks to my hon. and learned Friend for his kind remarks about myself and

Orders of the Day — NAVY, ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1942

Considered in Committee.


[Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS in the Chair]


I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 3ist day of March, 1943, that, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total surpluses and deficits on Navy Votes for that year are as follows:


Total Surpluses, namely:
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d


Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 2–6 and 8–16)
——


36,493,279
8
4


Total Deficits, namely:








Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 1 and 7)
37,875,574
4
7





Excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure
591,708,473
8
9
629,584,047
13
4


Net Deficit (charged to the Vote of Credit)



£593,090,768
5
0


And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of surplus receipts realised under Votes 2 to 6 and 8 to 16 towards making good the deficit in receipts under Votes 1 to 7.

my colleague. This Committee stage is almost as pleasant as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said just now the Third Reading stage of the Finance Bill had been. The answer to the point my hon. and learned Friend makes is that I did consider the possibility of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General both being either absent or ill, but one must hope it will not happen. Lawyers, on the whole, have to be, by the nature of their profession, a fairly hardy race. Of course one can always imagine anything—one can imagine all the Secretaries of State being ill at once. And so I thought we had better stop here. My hon. and learned Friend is quite right. In theory, there is only one Secretary of State, and therefore each of the individual Secretaries of State can perform any functions which, either by Statute or in Common Law, have to be performed by the Secretary of State. But even if that were a possibility, I cannot think that my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State would welcome a decision which put on their shoulders rather knotty legal problems and made them responsible for decisions which Parliament thought ought to be entrusted to trained lawyers. All I can say to my hon. and learned Friend is that one must just hope that one or other of us will be here to carry out the functions.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clauses 2, 3 and 4, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

SCHEDULE.


No. of Vote.
Navy Services, 1942, Votes.
Deficits.
Surpluses


Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.
Deficiences of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.




£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.


1
Wages, etc., of Officers and Men of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, and of certain other Personnel serving with the Fleet
49,722,888
1
1
37,875,564
4
7
—


2
Victualling and Clothing for the Navy
43,027,544
3
7
—
9,814,379
11
10


3
Medical Establishments and Services
2,574,144
7
0
—
114,003
17
7


4
Civilians employed on Fleet Services
4,498,780
18
4
—
5,593
18
11


5
Educational Services
329,926
14
0
—
70,316
3
6


6
Scientific Services
2,771,658
16
0
—
91,905
13
11


7
Royal Naval Reserves
28,701
13
6
10
0
0
—


8
Shipbuilding, Repairs, Main tenance, etc.:
443,369,417
12
1
—
24,579,263
11
3



Section I—Personnel



Section II—Materiel



Section III—Contract Work


9
Naval Armaments


10
Works, Buildings and Repairs at Home and Abroad


16
Merchant Shipbuilding


11
Miscellaneous Effective Ser vices
28,876,984
17
0
—
1,711,742
14
2


12
Admiralty Office
5,298,767
6
1
—
29,703
4
1


13
Non-effective Services (Naval and Marine)—Officers
1,863,970
13
3
—
13,107
5
3


14
Non-effective Services (Naval and Marine)—Men
5,591,521
15
1
—
62,707
1
3


15
Civil Superannuation, Allowances and Gratuities
1,337,502
13
11
—
556
6
7


—
Balances Irrecoverable and Claims abandoned
1,816,663
17
10
—
—




591,708,473
8
9
37,875,574
4
7
Total Surpluses




Total Deficits £629,584,047 13 4
£36,493,279
8
4




Net Deficit met from Vote of Credit £593,090,768 5 0 "


Resolved: "That the application of such surpluses be sanctioned."—[Mr. Assheton.]

"II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1943, that, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total surpluses and deficits on Army Votes for that year are as follows:


Total Surpluses, viz:
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.


Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Votes 2–15)



9,865,820
1
4


Total Deficits, viz.:


Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Vote 1)
12,324,364
19
6





Excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure
796,807,663
8
6
809,132,028
8
0


Net Deficit {charged to the Vote of Credit)



£799,266,208
6
8


And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of surplus receipts realised under Votes 2 to 15 towards making good the deficit in. receipts under Vote 1

SCHEDULE.


No. of Vote.
Army Services, 1942, Votes.
Deficits.
Surpluses.


Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.
Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.




£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.


1
Pay, etc., of the Army
310,611,131
9
9
12,324,364
19
6
—


2
Territorial Army and Reserve Forces
7,238,304
14
8
—
35,965
14
8


3
Medical Services
4,794,701
13
2
—
120,567
3
8


4
Educational Establishments
1,867,309
17
4
—
3,852
7
10


5
Quartering and Movements
74,272,761
3
1
—
806,691
5
8


6
Supplies, Road Transport and Remounts
193,482,642
6
4
—
3,535,703
14
2


7
Clothing
5,538,629
11
11
—
49,005
10
0


8
General Stores
28,213,746
13
11
—
203,873
17
3


9
Warlike Stores
9,671,517
0
4
—
38,783
19
6


10
Works, Buildings and Lands
119,825,925
7
7
—
2,541,394
5
1


11
Miscellaneous Effective Services
29,010,798
15
7
—
1,134,397
7
3


12
War Office
2,866,125
14
8
—
4,802
13
5


13
Half-pay, Retired Pay and other Non-effective Charges for Officers
3,249,621
2
5
—
649,712
6
1


14
Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers, men and others
1,799,334
15
11
—
740,950
9
0


15
Civil Superannuation, Com-pensation and Gratuities
322,195
6
3
—
119
7
9


—
Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned
4,042,917
15
7
—
—




796,807,663
8
6
12,324,364
19
6
Total surpluses




Total Deficits
£809,132,028
8
0
£9,865,820
1
4




Net Deficit met from Vote of Credit £799,266,208 6 8"


Resolved: "That the application of such surpluses be sanctioned."—[Mr. Assheton.]

"III. Whereas it appears by the Air Services Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1943, that, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the total surpluses and deficits on Air Votes for that year are as follows:


Total Surpluses, namely:
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.


Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts {Votes 2–11)



42,995,051
4
5


Total Deficits, namely:








Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated receipts (Vote 1)
51,571,256
10
2





Excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure
454,866,264
10
0
506,437,521
0
2


Net Deficit (charged to the Vote of Credit)



£463,442,469
15
9


And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of surplus receipts realised under Votes 2 to 11 towards making good the deficit in receipts under Vote 1.

Schedule.


No. of Vote.
Air Services, 1942, Votes.
Deficits.
Surpluses.


Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.
Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.




£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.


1
Pay, etc., of the Air Force
130,889,833
8
1
51,571,256
10
2
—


2
Quartering Non-Technical Stores, Supplies and Transportation
57,356,831
6
1
—
2,422,331
16
2


3
Technical and Warlike Stores
65,596,022
5
3
—
36,410,270
4
11


4
Works, Buildings and Lands
163,112,849
12
9
—
3,325,684
4
7


5
Medical Services
843,838
4
9
—
104,114
19
1


6
Educational Services
998,902
11
2
—
2,602
17
4


7
Reserve and Auxiliary Forces
303,906
12
9
—
722
0
7


8
Civil Aviation
2,933,838
13
11
—
164,818
17
1


9
Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services
26,602,412
4
6
—
518,142
19
6


10
Air Ministry
3,650,717
11
10
—
1,098
4
7


11
Half-Pay, Pensions and other Non-effective Services
962,302
8
4
—
45,265
0
7


—
Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned
1,614,809
10
7
—
—




454,866,264
10
0
51,571,256
10
2
Total Surpluses




Total Deficits
£506,437,521
0
2
£42,995,051
4
5




Net Deficit met from Vote of Credit £463,442,469 15 9"


Resolved: "That application of such surpluses be sanctioned."—[Mr. Assheton.]


Resolutions to be reported upon Tuesday next.

Orders of the Day — SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS

Resolved:
That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section I of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Wednesbury, a copy of which Order was presented on 27th June, be approved."—[Mr. A. S. L. Young.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. A. S. L. Young.]

Orders of the Day — HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

Mr. Driberg: I feel that I owe the House some slight explanation of the fact that I am not raising on the Adjournment to-day the subject which the notice behind your Chair, Mr. Speaker, says that I am going to raise. The explanation of that is the simple one that I did not give notice of my intention

to raise that subject and never had any intention of doing so; I think there must have been some slight misunderstanding in your Office. On the other hand, I am equally not raising the subject which I had intended to raise on the Adjournment to-day, for the equally simple reason that I have received satisfactory assurances from the Department concerned with it. What I am raising is a minor and technical matter which is not, however, I hope, altogether without importance or interest. No Government reply is needed, because, indeed, I am informed that it comes within your scope, Sir, rather than within the province of the Treasury. I want to draw attention to what seems to me to be the increasing prevalence of misprints and slips in the OFFICIAL REPORT of this House. The acoustics of this venerable Chamber do not seem to get any better as the centuries wear on, and no doubt that is a primary cause of these very unfortunate and irritating mistakes that do creep into HANSARD so fre-


quently. The matter seemed to me to be brought rather to a head in the report of last Friday's Debate, the third day of the important Debate on employment policy, when there was a serious error in the reporting of one of the three main Ministerial speeches in that Debate—the speech by the Minister of Production. Towards the end of his speech, in column 576, he is reported to have said:
It is human to be prudent in almost all forms of life, and to draw in one's horns and cut down expenditure when income tends to decline, and that is the process to which we are asking both private and indeed public enterprise to revert."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd June, 1944; Vol. 401, c. 576.]
That, of course, is a complete contradiction of the whole experimental principle of the White Paper, and what the right hon. Gentleman actually said, as hon. Members who were present will probably recall, was:
and that is the process which we are asking both private and indeed public enterprise to reverse 
—exactly the opposite of what he was reported to have said. There have been several other recent instances: some of the liveliest sallies of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) have been missed. For instance, when the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) was denouncing carpet-baggers the other day, and the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale interrupted to ask if he realised what a very unfair attack he was making on his own leader, the last few words of that interruption were completely omitted from the OFFICIAL REPORT. In the same Debate, I think, the hon. Member for Oxford used the admirable word "indefeasible," which appeared in the OFFICIAL REPORT as "indivisible"—quite a different thing. I ought also, as a final instance of the kind of thing I mean, to draw attention to the lamentable fact that the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. H. Brooke), than whom there is no more loyal supporter of the Government, was made by the OFFICIAL REPORT to say that the Government's objective was to achieve "a high and stable level of unemployment."
Now, Mr. Speaker, I am, of course, casting no reflection at all on the staff of HANSARD, who do their very arduous duties with the greatest possible competence and assiduity in exceedingly difficult circumstances, often working very

late hours quite unexpectedly, and in all sorts of difficulties. But I do feel that something should be done, if possible, to improve the standard of accuracy of the OFFICIAL REPORT. I suppose the only radical and primary remedy is that we should all learn to speak more audibly; but that is perhaps Utopian. A secondary remedy, which is not without its dangers, is that more hon. Members should take the trouble to go and read through the typescript of their speeches in the HANSARD office. A great many of them do so already, but undoubtedly if the hon. Member for Oxford and the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale had bothered to go and read through their speeches on the day I have referred to, they would have probably noticed those slips, and put them right—for the benefit of us all.
It may be that those mistakes which are obviously mere misprints, in the strict sense of the word, are due to the manpower shortage, to labour trouble at the printers. That quite probably is so. It may be that they are short of proofreaders or other skilled staff. If so, I think that the Minister of Labour ought to be asked if he can help at all, because I feel that the printing of the OFFICIAL REPORT of Parliament deserves as high a priority as any other kind of printing. All of us, Mr. Speaker, whatever our political views may be, are united in desiring to maintain the prestige of this House, and I feel that the possession, of a complete and accurate record, as nearly verbatim as is possible and reasonable, can contribute not inconsiderably to that prestige. I do not think that we ought even to be afraid of occasional colloquialisms. I think it would be a pity to iron out, so to speak, all the homely colloquialisms which are used in this House. For instance, I hope that we shall have on record that very human little touch, just now, when the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) said, "I've rather forgotten where I was"—after that Marathon series of interruptions by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If we do iron out all those colloquialisms, apart from making the report less entertaining to read, we are really giving a false impression of the atmosphere of this House to readers outside and, if we may be so bold, to posterity. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say. I am sorry to have detained the House——

Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Would my hon. Friend allow me for one moment? He does realise, does he not, that some of the colloquialisms are, unfortunately, ironed out by hon. Members themselves? I do not know whether he was in the House at the time, but there was an example of that within the memory of most hon. Members when the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) delighted the House by affirming that he was a democrat from his top to his bottom. Subsequently, with great loss to the reading of posterity, that was taken out of HANSARD. I hope it is back now.

Mr. Driberg: That is a very good point indeed, and I think that hon. Members should not iron out colloquialisms themselves. On the other hand, I myself have had great difficulty in persuading the Editors of HANSARD not to iron out my own occasional colloquialisms. One is occasionally strictly out of Order, Mr. Speaker, without being called to Order by you. For instance, hon. Members will often say "you," though not referring to you, the occupant of the Chair, and it is the accepted practice of the Editors of HANSARD—quite rightly, in accordance with their instructions—to change that generally to "the hon. Member," or "the right hon. Gentleman," or whatever it may be. I think that is rather a pity, and I think that if we could leave rather more of those colloquialisms in, it would, as I say, give a truer impression to the world outside of what the proceedings in this House are like.
Mr. Speaker, as a comparatively new Member of this House—it was two years ago this week that I took my seat—I offer these observations with humility and with some diffidence, but in the hope that they may be of some use.

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: I really think my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) is taking both himself and us a little heavily. I do not think the purpose of HANSARD is to provide an exact phonographic reproduction of the atmosphere in this House, because, for one thing, that would be impossible —the spoken word is only a part of the atmosphere in this House. I think the purpose of HANSARD is to provide for such of the public at large as are interested a reproduction of the serious

political arguments that are produced. The mere fact that the. hon. Member for Maldon uses the second person plural instead of the third person singular is not of very great political consequence——

Mr. Driberg: May I interrupt the hon. Member for a second? I was led into that digression at the end merely by the interruption of the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby). I really did not raise this as a matter personal to myself at all. I said specifically that what had brought it to a head was the very important misrepresentation of what the Minister of Production had said last Friday, which was a serious political matter.

Mr. Nicholson: Of course, I was not making a personal attack on my hon. Friend—he must not take things quite so heavily. He himself gave the answer. He said that if hon. Members—I presume that includes Ministers and their Secretaries or Private Secretaries—take the trouble to go up and correct their speeches, they can generally draft them into fairly good English and make them represent fairly accurately what they said. I see no objection to that practice provided the alterations are not outrageous. However, I do say this: I am not a shorthand writer myself, but I know there is nothing more difficult than taking down the remarks of hon. Members of this House. Very often their remarks are made amidst a general hum of conversation; the speed at which hon. Members speak varies considerably; their diction and enunciation vary enormously. I want to pay this tribute to HANSARD. I think that nine times out of ten the success with which they reproduce verbatim what hon. Members say is amazing and worthy of the greatest admiration. I know my hon. Friend did not mean to make an attack on the reporters, but I do think he implied a definite criticism of them and, as far as I am concerned, I want to say that I have no criticism to make.
As for misprints, Mr. Speaker, the world would be very much duller without them. There is that famous story—I think it was in a New Zealand newspaper report of a public speech. The speaker had meant to refer to the "detective branch of the police force"; he was reported as referring to the "defective branch of the police force,"


and it was corrected next week that he had meant to say "the detective portion of the police farce." Then there is the famous occasion in this House, in the last century, when an hon. Member concluded his peroration by saying, "Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the immortal words of Lord Tennyson in "Locksley Hall" ' Better fifty years of Europe than a cycle of Cathay.' "Unfortunately, HANSARD tripped up and reported him as saying, "Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the immortal words of Lord Tennyson in "Locksley Hall," Better 50 years of true love than a circus at Bombay.' "
Well, Sir, I maintain that life would be very dull if there were no misprints. I must say it would tend to render HANSARD slightly ridiculous if every single trivial remark, every single error of grammar, every single interruption were reproduced exactly. There is such a thing as the dignity of this House. We are not always dignified in our words, but we are dignified in our attitude towards the business that we have to undertake, and I think that anything which would give the impression to the outside world that we treat lightly or frivolously the heavy responsibilities with which we are faced, and which we endeavour to bear properly, would be unfortunate. I hope we shall remember that, and not fall into the error of thinking that every single syllable that is uttered by any Member of this House is worthy of preservation for posterity. As far as I am concerned, I do not think posterity will ever read a single one of the speeches I have ever made or ever will make.

Commander King-Hall: With reference to the point made by my hon. Friend opposite, he will perhaps know, though I might perhaps remind him, that it is quite clearly laid down in a Ruling how HANSARD is to treat the Debates. The words are:
…a full report…which, though not strictly verbatim, is substantially the verbatim report, with repetitions and redundancies omitted and with obvious mistakes corrected, but which on the other hand leaves out nothing that adds to the meaning of the speech or illustrates the argument.
That is the definition adopted by the 1907 Select Committee on Parliamentary Debates, by which the Editor, under your instructions, Mr. Speaker, is guided at the present time.
At the same time I think there is some substance in the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg), and I think that there are two things which might be done to assist the Official Reporters in their work, because I think it is agreed that probably the reporting they are doing is the most difficult shorthand reporting in the world in the circumstances in which they do it. It is essential, I submit, that in the arrangements in the new Chamber, the Official Reporters should be given a much better gallery from which to report the proceedings of the House than is at present the case, where, as one can see, they are mixed up with a large number of other reporters who come and go every quarter of an hour. I frequently observe the HANSARD reporters finding difficulty in hearing what is going on, due to the conversation and interruptions among them. I think it would not be difficult to give our reporters a specially good gallery.
There is one other point that I wish to make before I sit down, which is the direct concern——

Mr. Speaker: I must point out to the hon. and gallant Member that if he is discussing the arrangements of this House, they are covered by a Select Committee and therefore cannot be raised now.

Commander King-Hall: The second point I wish to suggest for your consideration, Sir—this would be entirely for your decision, and I hope you may see fit to submit this to the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports for examination—is that I think it would be of very great benefit to posterity and would also deal in cases of dispute with matters such as have been raised to-day, if a sound record were taken of the proceedings of this House. It may or may not be known to hon. Members, that on a small cylinder of thin wire a complete report of a full day's Debate can be taken, perfectly automatically, without anybody in the Chamber even knowing that it is taking place. I am not suggesting that these reports should be issued or released to the public at the present time, but I do sincerely believe that, in 30 or 40 years from now, it would be of immense historical interest, if people were able to go to a sound library and listen to the Debate, for instance, which


preceded the formation of the present Government, or Debates on other famous occasions. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it would be interesting to posterity if they could hear the Debate which preceded your elevation to the Chair. If these reports were released 3o or 4o years hence, or when it was thought fit, there would be a permanent sound record of the proceedings of Parliament for all time. It would be most interesting if we now could go into a sound library, and hear the voice of Mr. Gladstone, and test for ourselves the extent of his great eloquence in, and power over, the House of Commons of his day.
If my suggestion was adopted it would, of course, clear up immediately any serious incident of dispute which might arise between an hon. Member and the reporting staff as to what was said. I can imagine certain circumstances in which it might be important to have the exact record of what was said. My real desire in making this suggestion is for the sake of posterity, and I respectfully submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that you might see fit to submit this matter to the Committee which exists to advise you, for it to report thereon.

Orders of the Day — ADJOURNMENT MOTION DEBATES (CHANGE OF SUBJECT)

Viscount Hinchingbrooke: If no other Members wish to continue the Debate on HANSARD reports, I wonder whether I might address a question to you, Mr. Speaker, arising out of the first part of the speech made by the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg)? The hon. Member said that he had given notice of another Debate but had dropped that subject and at very short notice—so short that no other Member knew anything about it—had decided to raise the subject of the reporting of Debates. I make no complaint at all in this case, but I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you would give us your guidance as to which has precedence in matters of Debate on the Adjournment—the person or the subject? It may be that the subject has been on the Adjournment notice paper for a few days and that many Members have made arrangements to attend the Debate, being rather more

interested in the subject than in the introducer of the subject, and I think it would be very helpful to the House if you could indicate your view of the matter, in order that we might know whether an individual Member is at liberty to chop and change his subject together with the Department responsible and then, shortly before the Debate is due to come on, introduce another subject of his own.

Mr. Driberg: Before you reply, Mr. Speaker, may I respectfully remind you that the same point arose once before, when you ruled that a Member was at liberty——

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member need not remind me of what I said before. He might give me credit for knowing what I did say. Of course, the Adjournment really belongs to the individual, and the subject cannot have precedence over the individual. But, quite frankly, I think it is most inconvenient for Members if the subject is changed. When Members attend for one subject and then find that it has been changed to something else it is inconvenient, and is not quite playing the game. While I cannot rule that Members who have the Adjournment should not regard it merely as booking a seat for a certain date, they should have regard to the subject which they have chosen and endeavour to study the convenience of Members.

Mr. Driberg: That was why at the beginning of my short speech I made a brief personal explanation to the House, Mr. Speaker. I did not actually notice until last night the error on the Adjournment notice paper behind your Chair, so I could not have altered it in time. Further, I did not know until yesterday that it would not be necessary to raise the subject I intended to raise, so there was little time in which to give notice to hon. Members generally, although I did tell a few who I knew would be interested in the subject.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly till Tuesday next, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.